Rival Watch

[leftwinger]

Well, you’re more than a realist over the Premier League, you’re a pretty strong advocate and admirer, which makes me wonder why you bother wasting your time with a team in the seventh tier. I would have thought at the very least, watching a club in the second tier, with a chance of promotion to that top tier, you think so much of, would make more sense for you. Now, where could there be one near here?!! Many, I’ve talked to from different clubs at non-league games, like me, reject the Premier League and all it stands for. After all, thankfully it’s not mandatory to like it or watch the games! And, after all, all things considered, realistically Guiseley are never going to get anywhere near the Premier League.

[danmartin]

Is it not possible to enjoy aspects of the Premier League and also non-league football?

I find the money in the Premier League distasteful and the various regulations are flawed and distorting, whilst VAR is the worst thing to happen to the game in years. I've often stated my preference for the quiet simplicity (and cheapness) of non-league football.

However, there is no doubt that both the quality of football and the matchday experience are a million miles from what they were 30 years ago. I don't know how much credit the Premier League deserves compared to other factors, but the fact that anybody from any background can attend a match in safety and comfort and enjoy football played to the highest standard it has ever been is quite an achievement and a very worthwhile one. Most aspects of football were not better in the "good old days" and they should be consigned to history.

[MrP]

I’m surprised how strongly you feel about this LW. For some of us (me), Guiseley will always be my 2nd team. Born and bred in Liverpool to Red parents & grandparents. Should I reject my heritage? Why have I chosen GAFC? Because I live in Guiseley, enjoy the social aspect of the match, enjoy the wins etc.

[Nik]

I think most people find the Premier League and many tier one divisions elsewhere distasteful, nobody with their head screwed on straight wants to see foreign governments buying trophies.

Not sure I agree with the suggestion that I should therefore pretend I wasn’t raised a Man Utd fan and follow Leeds instead on principle (much as I want to see the club of my home city do well).

I agree that at our level what we’re really talking about is the intensity/proportionality of the financial doping, where teams like Radcliffe, Macclesfield and previously many others can be floated up to the professional divisions with overpowered playing staff.

[leftwinger]

I made my views about the Premier League pretty clear, and see no need to expand on them or defend them further right now. I said to the person who challenged me, that we were not going to change each other’s view, thus it would be best ‘to agree to differ’. He then agreed but felt the need to add he was “a realist,” implying I was not ie superior in some way to me. I therefore replied to that. If he wants to carry on the discussion further, I will respond to him further but I am not getting involved in some sort of one v three (or more) argument on here, I can do without that. Everyone else of course, is free to carry on expressing their own personal view freely.

[Nik]

I think I was only adding that our views seem to be all pretty similar, just differently expressed/emphasised. We're all here, aren't we?

[leftwinger]

I don’t think all our views are similar. If you read some of the views expressed on here about the PL again, they bear this out. You can’t say someone who thinks the PL is something to be proud of and admire has similar views to someone who dislikes it, and thinks it has caused/causes many problems for the rest of football! I switched to non-league as a choice, because it’s as far away from the PL model as I could get and still watch some decent football.

[danmartin]

I think the Premier League is something to be proud of and admire, AND I think it's caused many problems for the rest of football. The two are not mutually exclusive, and it's perfectly possible to admire something whilst also admitting its flaws.

Some days I watch the lunchtime Premier League match in the Railway, then watch Guiseley, then go home and watch the evening PL game. I do hope that's allowed.

[leftwinger]

Your last comment is personal, and that’s precisely why I declined to get into a three/four way argument on here. It always becomes personal for some in the end. They see it as personal, that something they like or admire is being criticised which it was, but I said previously others were free to make their own choices, as you’ll see if you scroll back. So, I haven’t made it into a personal issue challenging someone’s grasp of realty or implying they are out to stop others doing what they want to do.  I stated my own feelings. Just as I have become an ‘evangelist’ for lower league football, telling others at times how enjoyable it is, value for money etc, I remain opposed to the PL elitist model and, therefore it’s surely not a surprise I would be ultra-critical of it.

[danmartin]

At the top of this page, you've literally told someone what their own views are, and implied that those views are inconsistent with watching a non-league side. I'm not sure how you expect people not to take that personally.

I think your criticisms of the Premier League are perfectly valid, and I agree with them. I would be interested to hear what you would do to improve it.

[bigj]

Nov 24, 2023 9:43:56 GMT 1 leftwinger said:

Well, you’re more than a realist over the Premier League, you’re a pretty strong advocate and admirer, which makes me wonder why you bother wasting your time with a team in the seventh tier. I would have thought at the very least, watching a club in the second tier, with a chance of promotion to that top tier, you think so much of, would make more sense for you. Now, where could there be one near here?!! Many, I’ve talked to from different clubs at non-league games, like me, reject the Premier League and all it stands for. After all, thankfully it’s not mandatory to like it or watch the games! And, after all, all things considered, realistically Guiseley are never going to get anywhere near the Premier League.

I bother watching Guiseley because its something I have done for around fify years or more after starting out watching BPA in the Football League and the NPL, then Leeds United during the Revie era until the day of the Bradford City fire when I witnessed a full scale riot at Birmingham City. Having watched the local non-league teams around West Yorkshire during this time I decided that League football wasn't for me because of the hooligan problem and have been a Lions supporter ever since.

Since then I watch maybe 70-80 non-league games a season from the National League down to the West Yorkshire and Craven Leagues and being a 'realist' doesn't make me an advocate of the Premier League, its just a recognition that its a natural progression in the structure of the game, just like when a European Super League eventually becomes a reality, simply because thats the nature of things.

[leftwinger]

To DM:
I did not “literally (tell) someone what their views are and (imply) that those views are inconsistent.” I said I “wondered” WHY they would want to spend time/ money following a seventh tier side, when they could instead be watching PL football, since they obviously admire it so much. I used to watch a lot of top tier football over a number of years and went to many games. And, back then if it had been suggested I might like to go and watch a team regularly, (buying their season ticket), six leagues beneath the level I was watching, I would have found it laughable. (There will be many football fans-particularly those who go to PL games-who hold that view. Some will no doubt live in Guiseley!) You probably wonder why I hold my view. I might wonder why you hold your view. That is NOT the same as your statement above which is a quote. Many non-league fans are watching non-league football these days, for similar reasons to mine, which are perfectly legitimate. I repeat; everyone is entitled to their own views, and the right to choose what they want to do. I have never said or implied otherwise.

[leftwinger]

Nov 24, 2023 13:47:05 GMT 1 bigj said:

Nov 24, 2023 9:43:56 GMT 1 leftwinger said:

Well, you’re more than a realist over the Premier League, you’re a pretty strong advocate and admirer, which makes me wonder why you bother wasting your time with a team in the seventh tier. I would have thought at the very least, watching a club in the second tier, with a chance of promotion to that top tier, you think so much of, would make more sense for you. Now, where could there be one near here?!! Many, I’ve talked to from different clubs at non-league games, like me, reject the Premier League and all it stands for. After all, thankfully it’s not mandatory to like it or watch the games! And, after all, all things considered, realistically Guiseley are never going to get anywhere near the Premier League.

I bother watching Guiseley because its something I have done for around fify years or more after starting out watching BPA in the Football League and the NPL, then Leeds United during the Revie era until the day of the Bradford City fire when I witnessed a full scale riot at Birmingham City. Having watched the local non-league teams around West Yorkshire during this time I decided that League football wasn't for me because of the hooligan problem and have been a Lions supporter ever since.

Since then I watch maybe 70-80 non-league games a season from the National League down to the West Yorkshire and Craven Leagues and being a 'realist' doesn't make me an advocate of the Premier League, its just a recognition that its a natural progression in the structure of the game, just like when a European Super League eventually becomes a reality, simply because thats the nature of things.

I don’t see the PL as “a natural progression in the structure of the game” and I don’t accept that if “a European Super League becomes a reality (we should just put it down to) “the nature of things.” I believe that we don’t have to accept certain things. Fans are currently vehemently opposed to a European Super League. Just as you didn’t accept hooliganism, vandalism and thuggish behaviour as part and parcel of football for you in 1985, I don’t accept what the PL represents and stands for now, since 1992 and what it continues to do to the rest of football. I will always speak against it, support any campaign to challenge its policies and ways of doings eg the campaign I mentioned, highlighted in WSC , and support lower league teams’/fans’ fight for a more equitable share of the football wealth. You say, you didn’t “advocate” for the PL. But, you seem to be backtracking somewhat. If you scroll back and read what you said in that first post, how else would you describe it?

[danmartin]

Nov 24, 2023 13:56:06 GMT 1 leftwinger said:

To DM:
I did not “literally (tell) someone what their views are and (imply) that those views are inconsistent.” I said I “wondered” WHY they would want to spend time/ money following a seventh tier side, when they could instead be watching PL football, since they obviously admire it so much. I used to watch a lot of top tier football over a number of years and went to many games. And, back then if it had been suggested I might like to go and watch a team regularly, (buying their season ticket), six leagues beneath the level I was watching, I would have found it laughable. (There will be many football fans-particularly those who go to PL games-who hold that view. Some will no doubt live in Guiseley!) You probably wonder why I hold my view. I might wonder why you hold your view. That is NOT the same as your statement above which is a quote. Many non-league fans are watching non-league football these days, for similar reasons to mine, which are perfectly legitimate. I repeat; everyone is entitled to their own views, and the right to choose what they want to do. I have never said or implied otherwise.

OK, fine.

I'd like to know how you'd fix the problems that have been created. I think there's a much more interesting debate to be had around that.

It seems to me that it's very difficult to have a league where any club can theoretically reach the top, and where success is rewarded, without also having a high level of risk.

Allowing clubs to overspend runs the risk of supporters losing their clubs thanks to inept ownership, but it also allows new clubs to reach the top. Regulation tends to entrench the status quo and make it difficult for new entrants.

For pure fairness of competition, the American approach of a closed shop is best. The competition can be structured to give losers an advantage in future seasons to rebalance the playing field. On the other hand, places without a team have to remain that way until either the league expands, or a team is uprooted from elsewhere. I'm not sure that's desirable either.

There's probably a middle ground to be found, but no way of fixing all the problems. There will always be issues and somebody will always be unhappy.

[leftwinger]

Well, I think I’ve said my piece on this whole matter now. I’ve made it clear where I stand, as have others. But, I tell you what, I would never have believed that I would be having to defend myself on a seventh tier non-league football club fans’ site for attacking the Premier League for holding on to as much cash as it can for itself and denying lower league clubs, a fair equitable share of the wealth in English football, which essentially lies at the centre of how the PL operates! I’ve been challenged by everyone posting on here since yesterday, to some extent, and totally by others. And, I would say some others are keeping keep their heads down! As they say, you live and learn, and I’ve certainly learned something from the responses to my posts, which began yesterday. A bit of a surprise, if not shock, I’d say, but there you go! Does the PL need defending or could this football ‘monolith’ do with more challenge and criticism? I know where I stand. I wonder what fans on other non-league sites would have to say-FCUM for instance-whose fans went to the trouble of starting their own football club, making it fan-owned and running it following a very different model! But then, some on here were having a swipe at that club the other day. Others on this thread have had a go at BPA! Wrong targets IMO!