Ashton United at home

[leftwinger]

Sept 24, 2023 17:06:58 GMT 1 ivor said:

I thought Denton was excellent in defence and attack. Won everything. Right choice for MoM
Ekpolo was good but lost possession dangerously 2 or 3 times which is not like him. As ever we all see things differently

I noticed in Tom Denton’s programme interview on Saturday, he talked about his football background and playing as a defender as well as a striker. He may very well be good in both of these positions. However, the problem for him and us (now certainly) is that when he is back defending eg on the goal line etc, his lack of pace means that he can’t get back up the field quickly if the Lions break out eg after a corner for the opposition. I have watched this happening a number of times.

[ivor]

Then put someone else up front to hold the fort when Tom comes back to defend as teams have done since the dawn of time

[leftwinger]

Have many teams played their main striker (no. 9) as a defender like this, since “the dawn of time”?

[Nik]

Sept 25, 2023 10:25:15 GMT 1 ivor said:

Then put someone else up front to hold the fort when Tom comes back to defend as teams have done since the dawn of time

100%. You could tell we were in between systems at times on Saturday as a couple of times they had three defenders back from corners and we left nobody up. (It was fixed quickly)

[leftwinger]

My point is, at the end of the season (if he’s still here)-not a racing certainty where Guiseley are concerned, TD will be judged on the number of goals he’s scored (with a secondary consideration being ‘assists.’ ) He is not a young striker, and is very short of pace. Playing as a defender/striker means he’s got to get from one end of the pitch to the other asap. He can’t do that quickly. I think our main striker should be able to be in or around the opposition six-yard box as much as possible. You can opt for someone else to step in instead, whilst TD ‘holds the fort’ (in defence), but he (particularly) when thinking of front men, can’t successfully do both. Since he’s selected as a striker (no 9) that’s his priority or should be. After all, if other players could do the job just as well, wouldn’t they be chosen as a no.9 instead? Kallan Murphy has and has scored goals too. If you want a more flexible, mobile player running all over the field, I don’t think TD fits that bill. But, perhaps he could be played further back, with another number nine in front. TD won MOTM on Saturday but didn’t score. That’s rather unusual isn’t it?

[Nik]

I'm a little bit confused about what you're saying about corners though. Every tall striker goes back and defends at corners - even Haaland.

If anything, the confusion seemed to be that because Murphy is better aerially than his height suggests, he was going back too, and we didn't have a natural 'quick winger' to leave up for the out ball. I think maybe Devine did it in the end.

[leftwinger]

I think, bearing in mind his age, and slowness of pace, we can’t afford to have TD being left behind in the defensive area, when we get a breakaway or counter-attack, as our main striker. We need him for his goals and assists. Younger, quicker players can do it, perhaps but you need to be quick and able to get from one goal area to another, frequently in a game. And, we are asking TD to put away his share of goals too. That should be his main job.

[ivor]

TD is not the man for a quick counter-attack. Let him defend set pieces and leave someone quick up front while he does that. He is good in both boxes - play to his strengths.

[leftwinger]

He will certainly miss out on a lot of potential goal-scoring situations, that way. We could of course use or acquire a quick-paced striker who can play as another (alternative in addition to Murphy) main striker. Perhaps one of the incoming manager’s first tasks.

[Nik]

I understand now, but I think with the height of our centre backs, opposition managers would be delighted to see us leaving Denton on the halfway line for the out ball from corners...

[leftwinger]

Or, opposition managers might “be delighted” to see a slow-paced main striker marooned up the field, away from the danger zone (theirs) and unable to capitalise on breakaways/counter attacks and doing his main job Ie to try to score goals.

[ivor]

But you say he is slow so he is not suited to quick counter attacks. How many goals are scored from a breakaway from a defensive corner at our level? Around nil would be a safe bet. I will say no more as you are not going to change your mind whatever the counter argument.

[bigj]

Images and video from the game

[leftwinger]

Sept 25, 2023 20:30:49 GMT 1 ivor said:

But you say he is slow so he is not suited to quick counter attacks. How many goals are scored from a breakaway from a defensive corner at our level? Around nil would be a safe bet. I will say no more as you are not going to change your mind whatever the counter argument.

Well, you were the one who said above, “As ever, we all see things differently.” That’s absolutely correct. A number of people on here described Saturday’s performance as “disappointing”or “poor” yet one poster described it as the “best football” he’d seen Guiseley play this season. You praised TD for winning all his headers, claiming he deserved MOTM, yet others didn’t feel that way about him. One person praised the temporary manager for getting the team ready for this match, (which is fair enough) no one else mentioned this. Others have been ‘ultra- critical’ of the previous manager, and called repeatedly for his sacking, whilst some have taken a more restrained position. But, yes, I am open to ‘argument’ and a related change of mind. But, I believe strikers-and these days there are precious few of them on the field compared to any other time in football history, should concentrate on attacking and scoring goals. There’s usually fewer of ‘them’ in football matches nowadays too. Perhaps, that’s why some say football is much less entertaining than it used to be.

[andyhaines]

Sept 25, 2023 21:18:17 GMT 1 leftwinger said:

Sept 25, 2023 20:30:49 GMT 1 ivor said:

But you say he is slow so he is not suited to quick counter attacks. How many goals are scored from a breakaway from a defensive corner at our level? Around nil would be a safe bet. I will say no more as you are not going to change your mind whatever the counter argument.

Well, you were the one who said above, “As ever, we all see things differently.” That’s absolutely correct. A number of people on here described Saturday’s performance as “disappointing”or “poor” yet one poster described it as the “best football” he’d seen Guiseley play this season. You praised TD for winning all his headers, claiming he deserved MOTM, yet others didn’t feel that way about him. One person praised the temporary manager for getting the team ready for this match, (which is fair enough) no one else mentioned this. Others have been ‘ultra- critical’ of the previous manager, and called repeatedly for his sacking, whilst some have taken a more restrained position. But, yes, I am open to ‘argument’ and a related change of mind. But, I believe strikers-and these days there are precious few of them on the field compared to any other time in football history, should concentrate on attacking and scoring goals. There’s usually fewer of ‘them’ in football matches nowadays too. Perhaps, that’s why some say football is much less entertaining than it used to be.

I think what you are arguing for is specialisation over flexibility. These days, it's increasingly rare to see out and out strikers because it leaves a team short in midfield so more midfielders are deployed but with an onus on attacking the box. 20 years ago it was rare to see a winger anywhere else but out wide, these days they are secondary attackers. If done well this is every bit as exciting as football has ever been. I think the actual reason football is less entertaining at the top level at least is the move to possession football which again can be great as well but is really tepid if not. I am less convinced any of this works at lower levels though. Keeping it simple 4-4-2 over confusing more limited players can be effective. This might be a legacy of watching Guiseley being pretty inept over the last few years though.

The arguments over the merits of TD really align with what I was reading from Chesterfield fans in pre-season. Half of them think he is the worst player they have ever seen.. the other half think he is the best. I think if you want a big strong striker to head everything (and who is surprisingly good with his feet) he's your man. I think the problem is with playing him on his own upfront. He really needs someone ahead of him to pick up the loose balls and allow him to do that defending at set pieces. I always feel better when he's back for a corner.